Deniz Güven – full transcript of the podcast

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Marcel Klimo: [00:00:00] Welcome to banking on air the vacuum last podcast about banking, FinTech, and how it’s growing around the world. My name is Marcel and today I’m super happy to have Deniz Güven. The CEO of walks by standard chartered over in Hong Kong, Deniz, after releasing in September of 2020, you have achieved amazing success with the app.

You have managed to reach a hundred thousand customers within just eight months. And also we, these mocks credit service for your existing customers in April, 2021. That’s super great. And we as vacuum labs are very proud that we’ve been on this journey with you from the very beginning. So thank you for accepting the invitation today.

Deniz Güven: [00:00:41] Thank you very much for inviting me. This is a great pleasure to be here with you today and I hope  that we will have a great chat.

Marcel Klimo: [00:00:49] Great. I believe it’s now been two years since we first met is that  right?

Deniz Güven: [00:00:52] Exactly.  Maybe a bit more than two years.

Marcel Klimo: [00:00:54] Yeah, I guess you’re right. Maybe a bit more than two years. I mean, I still remember  back coming into an empty WeWork which is a bunch of chairs, a lot of empty rooms and we’re just sitting in this meeting trying to see how this MOX can come into existence. That was really exciting time. Now all those rooms are filled. Take me back, taking back to the very beginning. How did you get started with MOX and the entire big vision?

Deniz Güven: [00:01:18] Sure Marcel, it’s a long story, but I will try to  make it short. As you remember, maybe a bit more than two years ago, we started this journey with a lot of different discussions. Maybe not before that WeWork place, et cetera,  there were a lot  of  discussions internaly. Everything started in Hong Kong with H gaming, our big data. Because when I look at other markets, for example, for UK, all these neo banks, digital banks, you know conversations they started a bit different than maybe organically, but in Hong Kong, HKMA and thanks to them, to be honest, they started this conversation in 2017 October. In October time, they said we’ll issue a virtual banking licenses in Hong Kong. Once we heard this, of course, it was a great moment for us to understand, okay what will happen in this market and how are we gonna manage this kind of a new dynamic? Because at the end of today as Standard Chartered, we are a huge bank, actually, especially in emerging markets. We are operating approximately 70 different markets and 28 retail markets, but almost all of them are emerging markets. And  Hong Kong is one of the most important market for Standard Chartered, because we have a huge history here. First of all, we are the first note issuer bank in Hong Kong. I’m talking about 160 years ago. We are still issuing bank notes in Hong Kong, and you can see our names Standard Chartered.  It’s a great feeling. But on the other hand, we got a lot of customers. It’s a very profitable business in Hong Kong and it’s a great franchise. And of course the conversation was at that time, okay, there will be virtual banks in Hong Kong, but do we need to get one of these licenses? Do we need it, or how are we going to operate it. That time we asked two questions. First of all, can we defend our market? Can we defend ourselves with our existing operating model? Now our existing operating model is great. However, it’s a bit more like a traditional model and that traditional model, of course, in a branch base, physical places with some supplement of digital channels. This doesn’t mean that we don’t have enough some strong digital channels, but at the end of today, they are channels not propositions or not operating models. And the second question was, can we attack this market or can we attack any market with our existing model? I think these two questions, they opened a lot of doors for us because the answers were: No. And that no, I think it was our starting point. And after that, of course, we had a lot of discussions with the top team and maybe try to explain what should we design, what should we  build, what should we create in Hong Kong. Because the discussion or just answering these two questions was, okay, let’s do a virtual bank. But what is the definition of virtual bank? Because everybody’s talking about virtual banks, digital banks, neo banks, challenger banks. Who are they? What are they doing? And especially now, when I look at all this in a big banks and the big banks and the traditional banks and the global banks know they bring some challenger bank ideas, but have you ever seen a successful one? Because I’ve been in banking more than 20 years  and it’s really difficult to be successful if you are really coming from in a big bank and you shouldn’t think only okay, let’s build a sexy app and crack the market. Unfortunately, there is no market like this that you can crack anymore. It was 10, 15 years ago. Because at that time, it was easier to go somewhere with a sexy webpage, with some pricing and good branding.  It was easy, but now you can go mini markets and you can say this is my app super cool. But the customers will ask you: What is in it for me? And how are you going to differentiate in that market with your services instead of you know products, which we are going to talk about it. Yeah, of course we explained the situation and what I told to everyone, instead of building a virtual bank, because the official name is virtual bank perfect and especially in Hong Kong, let’s build the future operating model of Standard Chartered. I think this is the most critical piece and it was vital for me, instead of just focusing on one mobile app and pushing the technology and pricing. We decided to focus on new operating model, which can bring us a lot of different opportunities and also a lot of chances that we can differentiate ourselves in Hong Kong in this model.

Marcel Klimo: [00:05:35] Wonderful. For some people that might sound very easy but tell me about the first days. What were your first days like when you arrived in Hong Kong?

Deniz Güven: [00:05:42] Of course the story, it sounds like a super easy, but as you said, I started with couple of people in Hong Kong because I used to live in Singapore for Standard Chartered, and I moved here to Hong Kong and I brought in a couple of guys in, from Singapore, from my existing teams. I took a couple of guys in there from this market and we started. When I first moved here in people, they asked me, Deniz do you know Hong Kong? Because Hong Kong is different. All these things you can see in different markets. If you ask my opinion, there are a lot of similarities between many markets, but of course there are some also uniqueness of the markets that you need to understand. If you can understand that uniqueness, then you can differentiate.

Marcel Klimo: [00:06:21] Okay. Okay. I get that. But there’s lots of similarities between may different markets and there are unique things to specific markets. So did you do any specific research, to figure out how this particular market was different and how  would differentiate it?

Deniz Güven: [00:06:34] At that point, we decided to do  ethnographic research. That ethnographic research help us now to understand the daily life of the customers. It was a good understanding for us because we identified more than 80 different pain points in retail banking in Hong Kong. We decided to focus on these pain points. And on top of all these pain points,  we started to build services, not products. Now this is critical, not products you know, but  services. And under the services, we focus on micro innovations on the product level, and we try to solve the pain points. Being a e-bank  in Hong Kong or in any market is not that easy. Why? Because first of all, you need to get to the right approvals from regulator or regulators. And of course, here,  what we did, we wrote in a huge banking license. It was like Investopedia for me. It was like mine of second MBA. Believe me  we did that in three months time and with a very limited and small team. In three months time, we submitted that and of course, you know submission is not enough. You need to manage your relationship with the regulators and you need to maintain a really good relationship to understand the needs of the regulators. Plus, you need to know, also understand  what should you do on the customer side. Meanwhile, of course, there were thirty one applicants in Hong Kong for the virtual banking licenses at that time. 31 applicants from many other places, Europe, US, mainland China, Hong Kong, big groups, big families, et cetera. We obtained the license in 2018, sorry, 2019 March and it was a tough journey with a lot of questions and interviews and everything with our regulator. But thanks to regulator here, they help us a lot and I believe that  we put the right relationship with them. We obtained the license. What happened between the license application and the obtaining to license? There are many different parties or different companies, and if they reach us out to understand, do we want to do some JV partnerships?

Marcel Klimo: [00:08:30] Okay i get it. So do you believe you could be successful just on your own and based on this operating model or do you need the partners?

Deniz Güven: [00:08:37] Of course, what I believe and this is also a very important part of our operating model. I don’t believe that’s no, you can’t be successful on your own. It’s really difficult. Especially if you are building something from scratch. You need to find a partner or partners, that you can collaborate with them in a different way. I’m not talking about the marketing partner or database sharing or this kind of things. I’m not talking about these things. Or to be honest,  in our case, we didn’t look at a partner just because of the capital injection or investment. Now we didn’t look at any VC money. We look at some partners who can bring us two important things. First of all, distribution channel, they can be digital or physical and the partners who can build services with us together to touch the data life of the customers. And I’m saying this now again, because as a bank or, all the banks, honestly, it’s really difficult to believe that we can touch the data life of the customers easily. At the end of today, you are becoming like a utility and you are losing that power and many different apps in your phone, they are becoming a major, you know, players. But how can you become a, become a, you know, a data player in their lifes? So it’s a critical thing, so that’s why we pick  our partners.

Marcel Klimo: [00:09:56] Okay so what partners did you choose? Which ones did you get?

Deniz Güven: [00:09:58] Today you know, of course now everything is public, we got Hong Kong Telecom and PCCW group. Hong Kong Telecom is the biggest telco company in Hong Kong. And PCCW grew up in general as a group they got more than 4 million customers in Hong Kong out of 7.4 million population. And the second one is of course the trip.com. They are the second biggest digital travel operator globally. Unfortunately, in this day  it’s really difficult to talk about travel. However, travel would come back. We are praying for these vaccines and everything. What I believe is we picked our partners. We got our capital injection as well. We became a really well funded company. I was trying to hire you know critical people to the organization. It was tough Marcel, you were with us because especially if you want to deliver and build something quickly. I think we built this bank approximately in a 530 days. I’m not talking about the story that I gave you before, because in the beginning we were not in a build mode. Starting from build mode to deliver to market, I think 532 days or something. The delivering a bank. Okay. I’m not talking about a vertical FinTech. A licensed bank with a lot of governance, risk, ML, FCC, all these treasury liquidity finance systems with a new technology, which we didn’t use any existing technologies from our mothership.

Marcel Klimo: [00:11:22] How did you do it Deniz?

Deniz Güven: [00:11:23] It was tough. And of course I picked up two different ways. As a combined way. One is of course, hiring people and hiring the really talents from Hong Kong or outside of Hong Kong. I did more than 1,200 interviews, Marcel,  for different levels, CRO, CFO, CIO, or Head of compliance, or sometimes developers, sometimes  marketers, sometimes digital product owners. I did. To understand what do we have in this market or globally, and brought the right people and right tenants to Hong Kong. The second way, of course, finding good partners like you guys in Vacuumlabs and accelerate the delivery. Thanks to you, I think we found a lot of talented engineers. Sometimes remotely, sometimes we were lucky at that time. I miss all those times so that you guys could come to here and we worked together in the same office.  It was really, really, good experience for all of us. Thanks to you guys we accelerated to delivery. I think in 530 days we delivered the bank. we started with sandboxes, and then we deliver to some alpha beta. You can imagine we tried to you know fix the problems before we go live. And finally, 22nd of September, we launched the bank. And so far I think of the results are really encouraging. , I’m seeing really positive and encouraging results in Hong Kong. MOX right now I think it’s a very popular brand to people that they really like it.

Marcel Klimo: [00:12:55] This is great. I can really tell that you’ve done a lot of interviews about MOX at this point because you’re just basically going through all my questions at any time you say something i’m like oh i need to ask him about this you come up with the answer immediately. Perfect.

Deniz Güven: [00:13:07] I’m really proud, you know that I can give you the answers. Don’t ask me any difficult questions. Otherwise, now I can answer everything.

Marcel Klimo: [00:13:14] All right then. Let me ask you a simple question. And it goes back to what you were saying about the specifics of the Hong Kong market in particular. You came in from Singapore. You might have some experience with mainland China possibly, but tell me what’s what would you say makes hong kong very different compared to those other markets around it?

Deniz Güven: [00:13:31] I think Hong Kong is a real hub in Asia. I think all of us know that China is becoming a big power in terms of financial institutions, fintechs, startups. I think there are a lot of good players in China.  We can easily tell them that they are more valuable than European players or in the U S players. And Hong Kong is just next to China. And to be honest from my office right now, I can see the China. We are talking about this kind of approximity  and this proximity gives a lot of power to Hong Kong as well. The first thing is enough trading in Hong Kong. It’s a super power, and I think it’s a very important part of the Hong Kong economy. And as being hub in Asia between China and other countries, it brings us know a lot of new opportunities. If we focus on banking industry, Hong Kong is still one of the most profitable banking market in the world. There are some reasons behind that. There are a lot of strong new global and local banks in Hong Kong. These banks are mainly focusing on high level high networks customers to private customers. But I don’t believe that there’s enough financial inclusion here. So when I say financial inclusion, I’m talking about giving the opportunity to everyone that they can consume as like in a private thinking customer from their services. Unfortunately, if you are not in that level in Hong Kong, getting to banking services from the banks, I don’t believe that there’s the right service level for the customers. So which we call it real financial inclusion. And we want to focus on this financial inclusion to give everyone in Hong Kong. It’s not dependent on how much you have or  which demographic group that you are coming from. These are not important for us. We are not focusing on traditional segmentation models.

We are focusing on directing of the clusters and these clusters are based on behaviors. So this behavioral motivations, behavioral clusters are much more important than the other. The first one is financial inclusion. Second one of course, in Hong Kong, even today, not only in finance industry, in many industries, it’s a bit difficult to see end-to-end services the banks, they provide  channels. And they do digitalization instead of digitization. So what they do, they get, and they take their physical products. They put on to channels, digital channels, and they believe that this is the transformation. What I believe you have to do in a real digitization and you have to design everything end to end, that the customers can consume in a different way. Because today the model, our model is a bit different and that’s why we saw a lot of opportunities in Hong Kong that we can differentiate and it makes a lot of sense to us. The last thing for us, especially for Standard Chartered, it’s a great market to build the future operating model because we need that there will be some new players and especially in the traditional players in this market and they will come here and try to disrupt. Today they are here. I’m competing with mainly  six different, a strong mainland players, China mainland players. There’s one local player here, other than that everybody’s coming from. It really which big technology companies and they already launched the banks. That was also important opportunity for us to defend our, one of the most strongest  markets, from the non-traditional.

Marcel Klimo: [00:16:49] Okay. So when you’re saying you’re building the new operating model or focusing on services rather than a product, how is it different from the other players on the market? How is that a differentiation strategy for you?

Deniz Güven: [00:17:00] It’s a very good question. It’s like combination of the minute. There is no one formula that I can share with you, Marcel. This was the formula we are differentiating it. No, it doesn’t work like that. Under the operating model I define 10 different categories there that I tried to put all together and combine them as one operating model. The first one is we started with new technology. Instead of looking at very traditional core banking system and our technology quite well, we didn’t take our core banking system. I don’t believe that may have a core banking.  

Marcel Klimo: [00:18:10] So if it is not a core banking system, what is it?

Deniz Güven: [00:18:13] We have a service ledger and that service ledger it’s something quite different that we can create it, very building the bank and everything around sort of debt, a service ledger, we found same with new technology. Sometimes it’s a very important piece of this, but on the other hand, it’s not everything. If you focus on only technology, you made a lot of new mistakes, but we focus on technology just to enable some other things. This was the first one and the second one, and I will explain how using kind of technology to differentiate instead of using technology, just for technology. KYC redefining all the onboarding models, because if you’re a digital bank, you need to onboard the customers quite differently.

Marcel Klimo: [00:19:27] So what makes it different? Is it just really about introducing digital onboarding? 

Deniz Güven: [00:19:31] And I’m not only talking about: Deniz you have a digital onboarding? Yes. We have a digital onboarding. Two years ago I told my people here that guys, can we onboard the customers in three minutes, fourty  seven seconds? So that was the KPI. Marcel, this number it has been there since day one. And I told them  can we do this instead of I’m going to give you guys some targets. Can you onboard 10,000 million the first two days or in a can onboard this ? Can we onboard to the customers in three minutes, 47 seconds. What happened ? One of our customers, like he onboarded himself in 2 minutes 47 seconds. Okay. So he was not one of us. We don’t know that customer, he’s not coming from a banking background or something. Because I tried and I couldn’t onboard myself in there in three minutes and we solve this kind  of this. And this is why I, we are using a new technology, because technology enables us to do this kind of things and changing the mindset, changing the KPIs and quite differently. And other than that, AML, FCC, fraud systems. You need to know change it. You need to understand that, you know how you are going to resonate, how should these things in a resonate to the customers and how can we protect our customers from any kind of incidents within the models.

Marcel Klimo: [00:19:27] Okay. So the elephant in the room is called bank, right? Did you use cloud banking here?  

Deniz Güven: [00:19:31] Clouds was part of our operating model. We are one of the first cloud native bank in Asia. And I don’t believe that this entirely full fledged cloud-based banking in Asia. I think there’s some different sizes, but we are fully cloud native. So imagine a bank, everybody is talking, we are doing cloud migrations and everything. Perfect. We are on clouds natively and we don’t have any service. No service. So this is the reality. Again, Marcel, I’ve been in banking more than 20 years. I know the service quite well. So being on cloud it’s magical.

Marcel Klimo: [00:19:55] What do you mean by magical? Why is it magical?

Deniz Güven: [00:19:57] Why? Because you can create a lot of flexibility and also in the future this new operating model will create a lot of cost efficiency. In the early phases, it’s stealing an investment. On the long run, it’s going to be interesting case for us to run a bank entirely on cloud.  Of course, marketing stack now we redefine it, the marketing tech stack under this operating model. For me, if it is not performance based it’s branding. If it is performance based can be physical or digital, if it is performance based and then we call it marketing. So that’s the critical thing of differentiation. And of course we are using some of the players, global players. And I believe that we created this strong marketing tech stack. There are many things to do, and we will continue like this. But so far, I think our digital marketing, our platform is marketing. It performs quite well.

Marcel Klimo: [00:20:44] What does it mean to be services led? How is it different from any other company that provides services? Can you please define this?

Deniz Güven: [00:20:50]  So service led means you can do a lot of differentiations on the product side, what we try to do  for example, if you will take an taxi from here and if you are using a MOX cards, this beautiful blue card. Okay. So you can sync with your taxi app and you can go to the Hong Kong airport. And normally it costs you like 350 from here to there. But what if MOX bank will inform you with a gentle nudge and saying that Marcel in the last three times, it was 350, 360. This time it did cost you 230 and there was no traffic today in Hong Kong. Do you want to check your taxi provider? So this is something we are trying to build and create here, which means not a service led bank instead of being a product. But on the other hand, of course we are doing product knowledge. I can show it easily. Why? Because there is no card number on it. There is no CVC or there’s no expire date. I think that’s the beauty of the card. So what we did, we realized that there’s an extra sensitivity in Hong Kong market, especially about the card security.

Marcel Klimo: [00:22:00] Well, yes of course people are very security minded these days. So what did you do differently? 

Deniz Güven: [00:22:03] We built this card with MasterCard  and there’s no card numbers, CVC. If you are going to lose this card, nobody can use it on e-commerce transactions, et cetera. And it was the first numberless cards in Asia by a bank. I think, it was also good for us.

Marcel Klimo: [00:22:17] All right. All right. Tell me more. Sounds interesting. Any other similar things under this operating model?  

Deniz Güven: [00:22:20] One is hiring culture. We always believe that hiring culture is a very critical one and we hire people with Midas touch. Let me explain what is Midas.  So Midas  is a ancient gods in Greek okay. And this guy, I think he had some super powers or curse when he touched something, it becomes gold. But this is our hiring culture. And really, we want to bring people who can create extra value on top of it, who are okay, who are desiring to change. Of course, in our education, et cetera, everything is super important experiences super important, but can we hire people who are willing to change and also who are coming to us? I think this is super critical and we are pushing it. Ecosystem I mentioned about it, I think we got some super good to know JV partners. And of course, the last piece that I want to share now, under this new operating model, how we define, instead of focusing on market share, we are focusing on hardshare and if you are needing a market, you need to know, get the highest hardshare . If you will get the hardshare, you will get the market share. So this is our mentor. This is our operating model

Marcel Klimo: [00:23:31] Great. So what I’m hearing from you is that there’s a major focus on the brand, right? So similar to an Apple fan will identify as an Apple fan and live that brand in their life. That’s not really the case for banks. Is it? Like why’d you have a bank account of the particular bank? You probably set it up after you got out of high school or college, and most people probably haven’t paid attention to it. That is that right is that what i’m hearing correctly that there’s a massive focus on the brand that really identifying with what the brand stands for?

Deniz Güven: [00:24:01] We have that kind of an inspiration. It’s really difficult to compare  MOX bank with Apple, maybe not yet, but in the future why not? It’s too early because  we are  very young brand. We got to know some, our inspirations, like each experience should be game-changer.

Marcel Klimo: [00:24:16] So what does a game-changer look like? 

Deniz Güven: [00:24:18] So I’m sure you saw it more than 1000 people in Hong Kong, I’m not talking about paid media influencers. Okay. Forget it. That’s another thing. More than 1000 people from our customers, they share their unpacking experience on social medias. Did I   ask them to share. No. And this is priceless. Why? Because, I didn’t ask, we didn’t ask and they are sharing it. Why? Because they really liked the experience and they are so proud of being part of that experience. If you can create this kind of services, then you know, you have a chance to differentiate and to be honest with you, you can be successful. And I’m thinking is only one thing, right? And the people who know there, they love our cards. We got also a metal card this black metal card. I know that there was a huge queue for the metal cards in Hong Kong. That’s why I’m so proud of being part of this team. And I believe that we are on the right track. To be honest, we believe that this is a micro level product knowledge, but if you can connect this micro-level product innovation with your service level solutions, then I believe that you can be super successful.

Marcel Klimo: [00:25:26] What would you say were the biggest challenges for you to overcome with the past few years? What were things that you now look back on and say oh i’m really proud that we’re able to do this?

Deniz Güven: [00:25:34] Marcel. I think I should say the one thing we delivered this bank from home, literally. So imagine between, especially in Hong Kong, between February to August, September, we were at home. We didn’t come to office that much. Maybe two, three weeks we came. We were at home and we delivered from home. I think it was a big challenge. Was it different for different companies? Of course not. Especially in the beginning. Can you remember right? People, they didn’t know that, know how to communicate with this kind of video platforms. Today everybody’s expert. However, delivering a bank is a different thing because it needs a different coordination. It needs different kind of communication between the teams. Not only the delivery side So that’s why that was a huge challenge for us. The second challange finding the right talents and bringing the right talents  to Hong Kong. Especially after COVID of course, it’s tough to ask people and travel here and hiding people from different markets to here. I think it’s still a big challenge for me, because I believe that there are some areas that we have to bring some experts from outside and of course, building talent pool. It has been a challenge for the last two years. Other than that, of course you are dealing with a lot of different banks and governance is important. Risk types are super important. I really take all these things extremely seriously. It’s not the FinTech company. So it was  difficult for us to understand, adapt, change, and reuse it. Now that was a big challenge for us, but what I believe that we didn’t do anything like, okay, now let’s take it from a big bank and we use it. No. We didn’t do that. That’s why we gave extra reports  to understand and rewrite and reuse in a different way,

Marcel Klimo: [00:27:17] What are the recent numbers? What can you share with us?

Deniz Guven: [00:27:20] We reached 60,000 customers base after 80 days.  I know, it sounds especially in some point in some European markets or US markets, Oh, then it’s only 60,000. Let me explain that. .  MOX original almost 1% of Hong Kong population. So 1% of Hong Kong, the country population we’ll use your bank. So we can discuss this in four different markets. Is it really easy to do that, et cetera, et cetera. So that’s why I think the customer adoption, they really like it. They onboard their subs in a very quick and they start to use it. Other than that, we got actually the deposit balance. It’s interesting. Why? Because the average deposit balance right now, it’s around 79,000 Hong Kong dollars, which means almost 10,000 USD. So look all this, no challenger banks from different markets. After  many years. Do you see this kind of average deposit balance? No. So this is the difference of Hong Kong. We bring a lot of new customers and good customers. They were craving for good service. So they are coming to us. And honestly,  our pricing model is not predatory. We are not giving the best or even we are not first five, six best interest rates, bank list. That’s the reality. We are competitive partner. We are not the predatory, we are not doing any predatory,  pricing to our customers. Even with that, once the customers, they start to use us, I think they love it. So that’s why I know the customer numbers are quite good. Deposit balance impressive, I should say. If I know of the other markets, it’s not comparable. Card usage, it’s becoming a much better every day. I still have debit cards,  but I’m using the credit cards already on sandbox. So my card is a credit card right now. And hopefully sometimes in 2021, we will provide credit cards, to our customers in Hong Kong instead of only debit card. So it’s coming it’s on its way. What I see these, I know some really good results, but there’s one interesting thing of related with this hardshare because when I say, you know, hardshare  of people, sometimes they think, okay, these are something high level marketing communications. So after 80 days on App store, MOX bank had more than 7,000   comments, reviews, and comments. And we got 4.8 stars,  on App store . And very similar, on the Google play. It’s 4.5 stars or 4.4 stars. I think this is also showing us that we are doing something good for the customers and, Marcel you knowmuch better than me, you cannot get this kind of  ratings,  from the customers, if they don’t like it. You can’t. Impossible. So that’s why really good signs for us.

Marcel Klimo: [00:29:51] Deniz, I know you’re a very busy man, so I don’t want to take too much of your time. Thank you so much for joining us today. I bet the listeners really enjoyed this conversation and really just everything that has been going on over the past three years, coming in with nothing and building a full fledged bank over the course of a fairly short time in the world of banking. It’s been very incredible. It’s not a small thing, FinTech, but it’s a full on bank. It’s not repurposing existing rails out there. It’s actually building a full on bank. So I’m really proud that we could work on this together and really have the stuff  that we have been able to produce together. And I would like to congratulate you on launching this. This has been an incredible journey and I wish you all the best over the next few years as this thing keeps growing and becoming. A bigger and bigger in the Hong Kong market. Maybe if you allow me one final question this is not only available in hong kong right there’s no way to get a MOX card and MOX bank account?

Deniz Güven: [00:30:42] For now, we are only in Hong Kong. Yes.

Marcel Klimo: [00:30:43] Thank you so much, Deniz.

Deniz Güven: [00:30:45] Thank you very much Marcel.

 Marcel Klimo: [00:30:49]  Thank you  for listening. If you liked this episode, please don’t hesitate to like subscribe, review, download or share it. My name is Marcel  and I’m from Vacuumlabs and we’ll be back soon with another episode that will give you new insights into digital banking.

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