Listen to the entire episode with Nick & Kevin here:
KEVIN a NICK text
Helene Panzarino: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Vacuumlabs podcast Banking on air. I’m your host, Helene Panzarino and as ever I’m never alone on these podcasts. And today I have two guests. I’m very excited to say. And the topics that we’ll be delving into is Embedded finance. Embedded finance. What is it? What influences it? What are the use cases and what are the benefits? Embedded finance has been touted as potentially the thing that will change FinTech as we know it. And FinTech was the thing that was touted as changing financial services, as we know it. So it could be one of those topics that has real weight. So before we get stuck into all and all our subscribers get to hear the journey let’s get some introductions. So today I’m joined by Nick Heller from Tomatopay or Tomatopay , if you’re in north America potentially, and Kevin Sefton, who’s the CEO of Untied. Nick, should we get an introduction from you and tell us what the company is doing and then we’ll talk more about and embedded finance.
Nick Heller: [00:01:09] Thank you. Helene. I’m really happy to be here to talk about a really exciting and important topic around embedded finance. As you mentioned Nick Heller co-founder CEO of Tomatopay a London-based open banking powered payments platform that helps small businesses get better access to financial services. We’ve been operating for a few years now and we really have been on the forefront of open banking and PSD2 and really excited to discuss this topic, which is hugely important to small businesses in the UK and all around the world, which is bringing banking and financial services into the day-to-day operations of their business, so they can get on with doing what they do best, which is pursuing their passion to create a better environment for their communities through their chosen line of work.
Helene Panzarino: [00:02:08] Thank you very much. It sounds like it’s got some powerful stuff to discuss today. Kevin?
Kevin Sefton: [00:02:15] Good to be with you today and with Nick as well. I’m the co founder of Untied. Untied I just the UK’s personal tax app, and more generally a trusted layer between financial transactions, the tax system and people. And we’ll be seeing how that will be changing over the course of the next couple of years. And we’re here to make taxes simple and straightforward for the majority of people who want to be compliant, but they’re not tax experts. So our philosophy is that people should be able to manage the taxes compliantly and reduce the tax they pay by being an expert in themselves, not an expert in taxes. So there are a couple of big trends Nick’s already touched on open banking and we use open banking transactions to start the gathering process of understanding someone’s tax position. And we go all the way through to submitting straight to HMRC. There’s a big change, which is happening in tax from April, 2023, which is called making tax digital for income tax. And from that point, anyone who is self-employed or property landlord turning over more than 10,000 pounds will be required to use new third party software. And that’s what Untided is here already recognized by HMRC to be doing.
Helene Panzarino: [00:03:28] Kevin, it’s really good to hear it because I can imagine you both know that I’ve worked with like literally tens of thousands of SMEs over the last 20 odd years or so. And I can imagine the shivers that go down people’s spine at the very early stage or the microend of their business when they hear that they have to do things digitally from an HMRC perspective. Anyway HMRC for global view is the tax authority in the UK. But of course, anywhere you are in the world, when you are a small business, Tax is one of those things if it’s not your force, and as you said, Kevin, they have, and Nick you’ve alluded, they have other things to be getting on with like running the business, anything that helps and anything that can draw on permission data to look at the analytics of that and to do something useful with it. Reconciliation and tax as an automatic thing has got to be good. So we’ve got embedded finance, we’ve got open banking, which is the regulation driving some of the ability to share the data, not just in the UK or off the back of PSD2 in Europe, into the UK and now we’re seeing it obviously globally open banking is really coming on a pace. And then of course the impact on small businesses, which is something that all of us are passionate about, and we’ve seen at the end of the last year and some change, how small businesses have been now designated as the engine fraternity in the corner, in a post COVID world. And so we better come up with some good and useful things to help them do that.
I think globally, they account for a large percentage of GDP. I think we all would accept that as a green, but how do we help them? So, Nick, again, we have a variety in our listeners and our subscribers have levels of understanding in financial services. So maybe we can start off with what is the definition of embedded finance?
Nick Heller: [00:05:18] But embedded finance. So it’s a hot topic these days. And I think I’ll start off with a very simple definition, but then maybe talk a little bit more about the drivers, similar to what Kevin mentioned. So firstly, I think we’re all used to doing financial services. It’s a hugely important sector of the economy. And banks are literally too big to fail because they play in a very important role in everything we do as individual consumers to business owners. And that’s really to store value to hold our cash, to help execute payments and move money around and to do lending. And traditionally we would get up, out of our house and walk down to the high street and go into a branch and do banking. And that was everything from depositing money to making a payments through to applying for a loan. And it was a very active activity. You would actually have to physically do it. And I think embedded finance talks about moving financial services into the background where it’s more passive. And I think although banking is hugely important, it’s not something that everyone aspires to do unless you work in the industry. Actually, if you’re a small business owner and your job is to be a landscape is escape architects, but to be a contractor or a plumber, you want to spend your time actually getting more customers doing more jobs, you don’t want to spend your time doing the admin associated with running a business. Very simply embedded finance is about moving from a very active role and administering financial services and actually running a business, or even as a consumer, actively seeking out financial services to a more passive operation where it’s embedded in your day-to-day life. It’s embedded in your daily life as a consumer, as you’re going about your day, you’re actively engaging with various aspects, various people and financial services can be embedded at the point of need. A short example, could be on the consumer side, as we see sort of the growth of the internet, the commercial internet, and ultimately technology and the internet of things, which we’ve heard a lot about over the last 10 years. You open up your fridge, you realize that actually you need more milk and if the fridge is connected to your supermarket, then you can purchase some milk immediately right there via the internet. That in my mind is an embedded financial services transaction as a consumer. More importantly, in the topic at hand that we’re discussing as a small business owner, if you’re actually a landscape architects, and you’re just finished a job at one year customer’s houses, you’d want to build that person immediately, but generally speaking, you actually have to go back to your desk. You have to create an invoice. You have to align that with the contractual terms and then offer that over to your customer. And there’s a lot of back and forth and a lot of friction. What embedded finance can provide is immediacy. And at that point of relevance, in this case, as you’re walking out of the house, you’re, you’re thanking your customer. You actually able to request the payment immediately. They’re able to pay you. They’re able to get that information directly into their own hands, and you’re able to get that information reconciled, ultimately doing some of the magic that untidy and Kevin you’re able to understand the tax liability around that. And all of that is happening in the background while you’re going about your day to day operation. In short it’s about embedding financial services into the day-to-day life of an individual or a business and being more passive and removing that friction and ultimately helping everybody.
Helene Panzarino: [00:09:18] It’s interesting because listening to you. And when I started this, I mentioned that people are talking about embedded finance as being the thing that will disrupt FinTech. Wasn’t FinTech when we set out, when we use the Monaco in 2011, 2012, for example, wasn’t it meant to be real time transparent, seamless? Don’t we always say this is supposed to be, you’re not supposed to know that it’s happening, right? It’s supposed to be efficient and transparent and cost-effective and happening in real time. And in a way, this embedded finance is bringing us to the Zenith of what FinTech was set out to be when we all started down this road. So it seems to me that they kind of go hand in hand and actually this is the pinnacle of what FinTech could be. It’s interesting that some people are putting out a sort of a potentially doomy gloomy situation when actually I think this is a great situation for it.
Nick Heller: [00:10:11] Well, we’re about to cross the chasm, I would say, into the mainstream because of internet penetration, because of the fact that you can embed financial services into everything that we do. Actually brings us into the enlightenment time of FinTech, which is actually everyone can become a financial services provider without being a traditional bank, which has a massive costs associated with it, not only in terms of regulation, but also in terms of setting up that type of operation. So this actually pardon to use another buzz word, but it sort of democratizes and it’s distributed financial services that can be anywhere. So I think this is actually a great time to be in quote-unquote FinTech. We’re just sort of about to cross the chasm into mainstream and it’s a really exciting time.
Helene Panzarino: [00:11:00] Okay. I want to come back to two things that you mentioned. One is this non-financial institutions getting into this and the Anna’s Andreessen horse Horwitz down the blog. I think it was everyone’s becoming a, a FinTech. And then also what I start to speak about the impact or the potential impact with incumbent banks. But before I do that, Kevin, Nick mentioned that let’s take the example of the person that’s coming out. They’ve done some work for you. They’re the carpenter, the plumber, et cetera, whatever they are and generally speaking, there’s always been a lag in terms of small businesses and micro businesses in particular, the sole trader, the self-employed person getting paid and it causes a cash flow problem. So presumably what you’re doing is actually going to transform this part of the MSME or MSMB market. And also just to get your take on how open banking is helping to enable this.
Kevin Sefton: [00:11:51] I think really contextual side that Nick really sort of highlighted is the important thing and embedding this at the point of need. I’m hearing in that scenario that you just described two really important points of need. The first one, if you were the trades person, you’re going to have invested potentially in subcontractors, you’re going to have materials that you’ve bought and so on. Now there’s a potential need to make sure that at the time that you go and purchase these materials or that you’re paying a sub-contractors that you’ve got the cashflow that you need there. And one of the things that really strikes me is I often get invited to take up loans at a point when I’m just not interested. And to be honest, at the point when my bank balance is going up and down, I’m not fully on top of it to know exactly when I need it. But here’s a really good example. I’ve got a contract, it’s evident. I’ve got a customer who’s going to be paying me. I may have payment terms, being able to make sure that I can fund and support my sub-contractors and various other things within that network. And of course, the second thing is that the point that I complete the work and my then puts on the payment requests to Nick, who have done the work for, and then suddenly Nick might have a need to say, well, actually, my cashflow is a little bit tight at the moment. I need to be supporting myself here. And all of that, of course, from a lending perspective can be backed up by evidence that you’re going to be seeing through transactions through open banking. I think the ability to collect that payment really quickly is so important that we so much time reentering bank account details. You repeat it over the telephone, the speed of the ability to make payments using this sort of technology that Tomatopay has is really quite exciting. And I just sort of, I guess, was it want to touch on some of the tax things that will have happened as well in the background. So if I’m in the construction industry, I may have subcontractors and various documents need to be filed in relation to my payments to them. Again, all of that can be tracked the behind the scenes invisibly for me as a trades person, using some of the transactions that we see in going through the bank account. And I think that’s very exciting in terms of removing. The day-to-day admin that someone needs to do as a trades person. My passion is likely to be that I’m a carpenter or plumber. Not that I enjoy doing my paperwork. We often see people really worrying about how they need to be getting on top of this admin. And the more we can be taking advantage of the data that already exists. I think the more powerful this is, and for these just thing, these things just happen automatically in the background.
Helene Panzarino: [00:14:27] Kevin, can I ask you a question? And you mentioned the data, and again, I can totally appreciate where this is coming from with the angst that is around doing all the facts and all the reconciliation behind it. Is there any element of, and this is going to sound potentially like a silly question, but is there any element of data in has to be correct and accurate for the data out to be the same? I’m thinking about back to using other tax systems, online tax systems that I’ve used, which are a bit more complex than just the an Excel spreadsheet and watching people enter data. And it was garbage job because I didn’t know how to actually set up the categorizations to get it correct. So the dashboard became useless than anything else that was coming off the back of it, was relatively useless. Is there any elements of that that we need to consider? Is there any education that, that the business owner needs to have with the sole trader needs to have to get this right at the point of entry?
Kevin Sefton: [00:15:18] Short answer is, of course. You need to make sure that the data which is coming in is correct and is appropriately categorized. But I also think there is an opportunity coming back to the analytics to help people get things right. But if we know the sort of trade that you’re likely to be in. We would have a very good idea, the sort of level of profitability that we’re likely to be expecting. So if for some reason something’s been mistagged, we’re likely to be picking up that sort of thing. And Nick was talking about the democratization process here. At the moment, the tax authority has access to this sort of algorithms. So they know whether this looks reasonable from their point of view. And I think it’s incumbent on the system as a whole to be sharing that so that we can be helping people make sure that they are staying aligned. We do see, there are people who willfully want to take advantage of the system and simplifications, and this is not for them. This is for someone who wants to be following the rules. Doesn’t have the expertise to be able to identify certain things, but we can help them and guide them along the way with contextual information questions that we’ll be putting to them at the right time. So instead of a long form that you might set up at the start of a process, if a transaction comes in, they will be able to wisidise effectively solving that and getting that right. There is a categorization paradox, which I just want to pick up because I think in the context of open banking, it’s important, which is most categorization looks at the nature of the merchants. For the work that we need and I think the next generation is actually about contextual categorization relevant to the individual. So that if we all go to Ikea and buy something and I’m a trades person, I’m buying that as materials. Helene you’ve got a property that you’re renting out. It’s part of your property costs. And Nick has just bought a beautiful new bookcase for his living room. It’s the same transaction, but it has got a different context and relevance to each of us and making sure that we get that right is important, but the best time to get that right, is that the point of a transaction being made not many, many, many months after the end of a tax year, because I’ll be honest if I look at my receipts, so if I look at my bank statement and I see a transaction with Ikea 18 months ago, I’m really at a bit of a push to try and remember what it was that I bought. So let’s do it while it’s fresh in our minds. And I think that’s one of the most exciting things that people will always be on top of this and know what they need at that point without shops coming later on in the day.
Helene Panzarino: [00:18:03] That’s very powerful actually for me, I can see there’s a great benefit there. Nick. I want to go back to something that I said, I wanted to talk about the incumbents because I’m listening to the payments, I’m listening to the two of you working together in certain ways. So if I’m the incumbent bank, if I’m not, the large high street bank, am I getting sidelined in all this conversation?
Nick Heller: [00:18:23] Well, I think there’s a few different ways that we can look at this and I think in some senses and in some ways they are. But it’s also up to them because if they want to actively participate in the evolution of financial services, then they won’t be sidelined at all. And so I will bring it back to the end user again, and then incorporate the bank, the high street bank, the incumbent banks into that process. So an example of what Tomatopay brings is the idea of this quote to contract, to invoice. So supporting a service person, a trades person, as they’re developing business in there in the initial communication with their customer. How they’re providing a quote, which then turns into a contract, which then ultimately turns into an invoice. And if you’re helping them with that process and you’re removing the friction from that process. You’re doing them a service so they can get on with doing their job and ultimately earning more income and revenue. But in addition to doing that, it also means they have greater visibility on when they’re going to be paid. You can apply the categorization to the data on their side and on the consumer side, which then makes sure that you’re properly able to analyze it. And importantly as Kevin said, you’re able to apply tax treatment to that. Now if you’re a bank, if you’re an incumbent bank and you’re offering a service like that, it opens up a wealth of possibilities. Not only are you better engaging in servicing your customers by giving them the opportunity to gain time back by using a very sophisticated yet easy to use invoicing platform, but you’re also gaining interesting data and intelligence on those customers. So not only will you see that they’re going to be paid in 15, 30 days time. You’ll see the transaction, you’ll see the tax treatment around that. You’ll see that data point and you’re able to offer financial services to that customer then at this point of relevance. At this moment in context. Do you want to finance that invoice before it arrives? Do you want to take out some sort of a merchant cash advance and repay a loan based on future revenue? All sorts of opportunities arise with embedded finance. And so if you’re an incumbent bank, you likely have a whole lot of customers already. You likely have, hopefully a healthy balance sheet where you can do more lending, but you’re not currently embedded in the day-to-day operations of your customers. And so this gives them an opportunity to actually be very valued, offer a win to the end business, the end consumer, offer a win to the incumbent bank who can put their balance sheet to work by lending in a faster, more efficient way, because they have better access to data and ultimately have a better view of risk and lower risk when you’re doing things like revenue based finance. So I think the opportunities here are huge for incumbent banks, but it’s their decision of whether they want to participate or whether they want to sit on the sidelines and use the traditional methods of banking, which we know are becoming increasingly outdated and are very expensive. So don’t actually add to the profitability of being a bank.
Helene Panzarino: [00:21:52] That is fascinating and I think that really puts it very succinctly as to how, particularly for the segment that we’re looking at, the SME, the SMB of a certain size, not the larger corporate, whether the banking arrangement might be different is giving in this case, we’ll talk about the incumbent or the high street bank, a leg up on actual leverage to be more productive, to be more efficient, to get more money out the door and actually to empower the relationship manager, if there is one and it’s not just a, an automated group, somewhere in the middle of the country. Like mine is, I’m just saying. If there’s an actual human being that you can speak to, they get more insight from the data as well as me as the business owner. And it becomes a relationship again. And we’ve kind of gone a little bit back in time to relationship banking, which is what it was back in the day than when I started out and you knew the person. And we see this obviously in the smaller banks in a more community or in a mutual or in a building society way. Generally speaking, we know we have a relationship and that was that trusted relationship has come back to the four again, during the last year saying, these people knew who I was and it wasn’t just all automated. And there was an element also, I think when Kevin was speaking before of AI machine learning coming into play, because the more you get to see the transactions in a certain category in a certain level, you can start to read and predict where things might actually sit. Not in terms of the financing they need, but also what the HMRC people will expect. And that is super powerful because over time I can remember back many years ago saying to taxi drivers, HMRC has a rough idea of what you are in. So if you take a lot in cash and you don’t take a lot in another way, they’re going to know. And it was always a kind of mental striking of the balance, but actually you’ll get it very clearly here. So that’s fantastic. And do you think that. With alternative lenders as well, some of the alternative finance platform lenders came into being when incumbent banks were not able to, or wanting to whether it is for regulatory reasons or for risk reasons to lend to this fragmented risk, you know, And all the things that you could say about SME lending and these they came to be. Are they going to find that it’s if income it’s get more power or get more back in the game that this will impact their lending, or should they also be getting on board with this?
Nick Heller: [00:24:12] I think to keep up with the times everyone should be on board. The alternative lenders sort of gain prominence after the last financial fallout of 2008. But if you looked at their early business models, primarily they were just a lender that slapped a website onto what was a traditional lender and became digital. And they weren’t encumbered by the legacy technology. So we’re able to utilize some ways of adding efficiencies and lowering costs of how they would originate and service a loan. I think that’s evolved though. And I think that both them and incumbent banks are looking for a partnership groups to leverage what they have, which is essentially a balance sheet they’re able to lend and embedding themselves through any number of different partners so that you’re in the day-to-day life and operations of a business. The incumbent banks obviously will always have an advantage of a lower cost of capital. So I think there is a little bit of a threat there from alternative lenders, but alternative lenders have just been traditionally faster and better at lowering their costs. And in turn, have it have been faster to adopt these new technologies, like open banking and others. I think that the playing field is starting to become a little bit more level and that the banks, as they lower their costs are able to go down to the smaller sole traders micro SMEs because of their cost of origination and servicing is lower as a result, they can get profitable at that sector and that’s going to impact a lot of alternative lenders. So I think everyone has to be thinking about using technology like Tomatopay and Untied and embedding themselves in the day-to-day life of these businesses. That’s I think just the trend that is not going to stop. It’s only gonna raise.
Helene Panzarino: [00:26:01] I wish that people could see what’s the excitement that’s happening inside me, even though we’re just on the airwaves cause this is very exciting. I don’t want to put a damper on it, but I want to ask a question about nonfinancial institutions in this space because there are online marketplaces that we have our data and have our trust to a certain extent. And if it comes up in the transaction to do something, am I likely to do that? If it pre-approved me for something or lets me, buy now pay later, but I can start the process now. And it’s happening in the transaction, it’s happening for real, as you said, and we discussed that that would be FinTech, at its zenith. Are they a threat or are they a partner or that, where do they fit in all this?
Kevin Sefton: [00:26:46] I think they’re a huge partner in this. I think there’s a significant opportunity for all of these platforms from many, many, many different perspectives. And your question there was really, I think, a little bit guarded towards financial services, but actually there’s so many things which are happening in terms of compliance and the need to make sure that that is actually dealt with at the point where it’s actually relevant. Now we talking about FinTech, but whether it is compliance in terms of product compliance, electrical regulations, product regulations, we’re all buying stuff from a global marketplace today. And I still want the absolute assurance if I’m buying something, which is advertise in a certain way, it is going to be safe. And particularly if it’s something maybe that children are going to be playing with, is it a toy which actually complies with all the regulations and embedding that in that marketplace is going to be critical and the same applies then to all the financial services that exist on the back of it. And I’m going to give you a little bit of a parallel. If as a business I’m buying things from a marketplace in theory, what I would like is that transaction automatically landed on my, against my VAT account and it landed against my PNL. And the data can flow if we want it to flow. And I think what we’ll find is that the marketplace is going forward. It really working to the business community will find that this data moves in a much more streamlined way. And I don’t even need to do anything, but suddenly it’s there appropriately categorized. The tax claim is made and that’s good for me as a business. And it also happens to be good for the tax authority. And on that note, the tax authority often has to know collect money we’re obviously in a post-Brexit world, but goods coming in and out of the country, making sure that that is done in a way where the tax authority gets the money that they need to allow the goods to flow through the border as quickly and seamlessly as possible. And it does strike me that one major software supplier I’m dotting around a little bit, one software supplier that we use over the course of the last 12 months, the tax treatment of the services they’ve supplied to us has changed three times. So if that’s changed three times Just for one business, how many other things other that we need to be keeping track of? And I think the platforms are a great place to be doing that whether that’s Spotify, whether that’s eBay, whether it’s Amazon, whatever it could be, or some of the big B2B platforms. I think it’s tremendously exciting to be getting that context there. Probably also come back to your question about banks because I think one of the real challenges for banks is the SMEs that Tomatopay, Untied and others are really focusing on sit between two stools in these banks. We’re not proper large scale business customers who are happy to have a relationship manager pay however much money a month for business banking services, which we can’t quite identify the distinction and we get a little plastic thing that colored reader, which are very complicated. And yet what we want to be doing is we want to be using our personal current account to be managing what starts off as a hobby, becomes a side hustle and then may become self-employed activity at a larger scale. And the banks are very awkwardly uncomfortable about that because they said, well, you’re not really meant to be putting business transactions to your personal current account, it’s against the terms of conditions. So I think the opportunity, whether it is for new entrance or for incumbents really sits in this space, which is going to grow between a business account and a personal accounts. And those, the succeed will be the ones that offer services that are relevant to those in that space. And I think it’s too early to predict where the hook is going to be. It might be your bank account. It might be a shopping platform. It might be a card. It might be that you are literally looking to make a payment request and you come straight to Tomatopay and you see the explosion that starts around smarter pay, and other services because of that. And I think it’s going to be really exciting to see where these hooks actually are over the course of the next couple of years.
Helene Panzarino: [00:31:11] It’s a very good point because it is like, no man’s land, isn’t it? In terms of a bank, you don’t want to overpay for something that you don’t need, if you’re not of the size. And then you get all muddled by using your personal credit card, your personal cash, trying to extract it from your personal account, put it in the right categorization to do your taxes. This is like an age old problem.
Kevin Sefton: [00:31:28] It shouldn’t matter. It shouldn’t matter which account it is. And I think that’s the key thing. Philosophy in the past, we’ve kept things very separate and now we can, it’s really exciting you can intermingle it. And then suck out the data using the technology and the analysis to make sure that we identify what it is relevant, whether it’s something to borrow against or it’s something for other admin purposes.
Nick Heller: [00:31:50] And why are we still trying to gouge businesses for fees when there’s a 22 billion pound funding gap in the UK and a 4 trillion pound funding gap globally, they want a loan actually, so they can grow. And if that’s where you’re going to make higher margins anyway, and that’s the core of what you do then I think that fee business where you’re gouging should just go away. And to answer your point in my view, I mean, I think it’s a huge partnership opportunity for incumbent banks. I mean, you see Goldman Sachs with Amazon, you see Goldman Sachs with Apple. Those are maybe a bunch of hundred pound gorillas dancing, but the same thing goes, if you’re Spotify, as an example, you see who’s a hit maker and you see the trends happening with those artists. You’re not a lender, but you might be a broker. And actually in this world of embedded finance, if we could also call this connected finance, and maybe who it’s going to disrupt is that, the brokers, because the brokers that sort of intermediary. Do they really need to be there? Are they changing because they’re actually embedded finance offers a solution? Whether you’re you know, a taxi marketplace or a food delivery service, and you have all these different sides of consumers, the sole traders that are working for you, the businesses. You have all of these different elements that is just flowing through and seeing that data that you can actually broker a bunch of different services, whether it’s tax or lending or other things. So I think that’s the real exciting part if I’m a bank, I want to do what I do best, which is lend and have a balance sheet and find the opportunities of where these customers are.
Helene Panzarino: [00:33:30] Right now, if we go back to us in the beginning about saying, this is very disruptive, this is really game changing. And I think for our listeners and our subscribers, now you have a much better understanding, I’m sure, of what it is, what the power of embedded finance or connected finance is. Where all the stakeholders and partners and players along the way can benefit. Where they may have to make some conciliatory noises take a bit less, but also empowering the business owner what be they a sole trader or a very small business as well. This to me is a quiet revolution and I’m so glad that the two of you are working together to make this happen. I feel quite privileged to know you all, and I think we should all have that same feeling and listening. So I think we’re up at the nearly at the top of the hour so it remains to say thank you to Kevin and Nick and to encourage all of our listeners to stay tuned because we may revisit this topic again. Subscribe and join us on all the usual channels. See you next time.